Show Notes
Dr. Dave sits down with Thomas Costello, executive pastor in Honolulu and founder of Reach Right, one of the sharpest teaching voices in church marketing today. Their conversation covers what it actually means to grow closer to Jesus one day at a time, why habit stacking beats willpower for spiritual disciplines, the obligatory religious phraseology killing most church communication, and why accountability partners of the same gender are not optional if you want lasting victory over fear, lust, anger, and pride.
About the Guest
Thomas Costello is the founder of Reach Right, a church marketing agency, and an executive pastor at a church in Honolulu, Hawaii. He has spent his entire ministry career as a bivocational leader, planting a church in Austin, Texas in 2007, pastoring in Madison, Wisconsin from 2013, and returning home to Honolulu in 2019 to lead a company and shepherd a church at the same time.
Thomas is known for his clear, tactical teaching on church marketing through Reach Right’s video content, including the widely referenced breakdown of what churches need to do for first-time guest experiences.
How Do You Juggle Being Bivocational For Two Decades?
Thomas has never known ministry any other way. He started as an associate pastor in college in the early 2000s while driving trucks for his father-in-law’s business. He planted a church in Austin in 2007 while working a sales job on the side. When he took over a church in Madison, Wisconsin in 2013, his prayer was that God would grow the church to the point where he could finally step back and focus on ministry full time.
God answered that prayer. The church grew. But somewhere in the middle of it, Thomas fell in love with a different model. He discovered he was better at leading through other people, releasing team members to do what they did best, and focusing his own time on two things: teaching and leading staff. He decided he was equipped and called to do both a company and a church at the same time.
It isn’t easy. Tuesdays are brutal. But the design is intentional, not accidental.
What Does It Mean to “Win” in Your Walk With Jesus?
Dr. Dave laid out his working definition. If winning were the bullseye, winning is having a better relationship with Jesus today than you did yesterday. Thomas connected it to an old quote attributed to Smith Wigglesworth: if you’re the same today as you were yesterday, you’re backsliding.
Neither of them pretends that’s an easy target. There are days you fall into something you shouldn’t. There are days a nemesis pops up. The point isn’t perfection. It’s direction. You are either moving toward Jesus today or you’re drifting away, and the daily choice is the plan.
Why Does This Framing Get Pushback?
Dr. Dave admitted he’s gotten pushback on the “better today than yesterday” framing. People ask, okay, but what does that actually mean? What are the practical steps? Thomas pushed back on the pushback: some of it is real, and some of it is guilt talking. When you have a bad day, when you didn’t grow, the honest answer is to let yourself be okay with that and get after it again tomorrow.
Guilt is not the discipline. Direction is the discipline.
What Is Habit Stacking and Why Does It Work for Spiritual Disciplines?
Thomas is a devotional guy, and his rhythm is built on habit stacking, a concept from James Clear’s Atomic Habits. His default temptation is to roll over in the morning and pull out the tablet: email, stock portfolio, messages. He pledged to God that he would not touch those things until he’d done the things he believes he’s called to do first: read the Word, spend time in prayer.
The stacking works because it doesn’t rely on daily willpower. The stack is decided once. Every morning it just runs.
Why “Recovering Pharisee” Is a Warning Every Pastor Needs
Thomas calls himself a recovering Pharisee. His temptation is to reduce spiritual discipline to a checklist. Bible: check. Prayer: check. Done. Religious duty complete.
He named it out loud because the alternative is dangerous. A checklist Christian never gets past the surface. Reading the Word matters because you’re meeting with a Person, not filing a compliance report. Thomas watches for this drift in himself constantly and encourages other leaders to name it early.
Why Does Obligatory Religious Phraseology Keep Coming Up?
Dr. Dave has been talking about this for a decade. Obligatory religious phraseology is the Christian language leaders default to when they’re trying to sound spiritual without actually saying anything. “Transforming ministries with the spirit of excellence.” “Helping people become fully devoted followers of Jesus Christ.”
They sound spiritual. Nobody knows what they mean. Often not even the person saying them. And Thomas agreed: when you’re talking about growing closer to Jesus, the ground-level basics beat the grand slam theology every time.
Why Simple Beats Grand Slam
Dr. Dave laid it out: three to five simple things a day beat trying to hit spiritual home runs. Pray. Read the Word. Get around people who know Jesus. Talk to somebody you trust. Do the next right thing.
A pastor once told Dr. Dave, “It’s one thing to be around the Gospel. It’s another thing to have your nose in the Gospel.” That’s the difference between being adjacent to your faith and being actively formed by it.
What Is the Billy Graham / Mike Pence Rule?
Thomas made a personal decision years ago to follow the Billy Graham rule (also called the Mike Pence rule): he doesn’t put himself in one-on-one situations with women who aren’t his wife. Not in a car. Not in a private meeting. Not at dinner. He’s been mocked for it. He doesn’t care.
His reasoning is simple. If he never puts himself in the situation, he never has to worry about the story that could come out of it. His wife never has to worry about him. His ministry never has to survive an accusation because there’s no accusation to survive. He calls himself “way over the top” on it and stands by it.
Should Pastors Mandate These Boundaries or Just Model Them?
Dr. Dave asked whether Thomas requires his staff to follow the same rule. Thomas doesn’t. He teaches it, he lives it publicly, and he lets it rub off. But he doesn’t legislate personal conviction.
His reasoning: if a staff member follows the rule only because Thomas says so, that’s legalism, not discipleship. The conviction has to become theirs. Thomas is willing to say, “Here’s my standard. Here’s why. You decide what’s right for you.” That’s a healthier way to lead than trying to control everyone’s calendar.
Why the Phone Doesn’t Come Into the Bedroom
Dr. Dave gave one specific example of how he lives out this same principle. His phone doesn’t come into the bedroom at night. It charges in another room. He shared a story about walking past a bubbly drink machine in a Delta lounge, standing near it for thirty seconds, and coming home the next day to ads for that exact machine.
The algorithm is that fast. If he picks up his phone at 1 a.m. and taps twice, whatever the algorithm thinks he wants to see will be delivered instantly. The point of leaving the phone out of the bedroom is the same as the Billy Graham rule: don’t put yourself in the situation. Don’t audition the temptation.
Where Does Christian Marketing Cross an Ethical Line?
The conversation shifted into agency ethics. Thomas made a video about a year ago responding to accusations that a church was geofencing other smaller churches in its area and running ads to people who attended those churches. He wasn’t convinced the accusation was true. He was convinced that if it were, it would cross a clear line.
Both Thomas and Dr. Dave have explored the ethics of geofencing mosques, Jehovah’s Witness locations, and other non-Christian spiritual environments with the goal of showing gospel-centered ads. That’s a very different question than targeting the congregation of a sister church. The technology is the same. The intent is what changes.
Why Accountability Is the Only Real Solution to FLAP
Dr. Dave asked Thomas for one tactical strategy for anyone struggling with fear, lust, anger, or pride. Thomas’s answer was direct: you almost never get victory over any of those alone.
You need someone in your life you can be candid with. Not just your spouse. You need someone outside that relationship who is the same gender as you, who you can call when you’re in the middle of losing the battle, who you can put Covenant Eyes on your computer with, who will lay hands on you and pray for you when you’re stuck.
Thomas told a story about a friend who was struggling with anger toward his young kids. The turning point was putting it on the line with someone he trusted. Being physically present. Praying together. Getting victory not through willpower but through iron sharpening iron, the way Scripture describes it.
You cannot pray your way out of pride or lust alone. That is the whole point of the design.
Where Does Plan to Win Fit Into All of This?
Dr. Dave’s book Plan to Win names the four motivators that hijack Christian leaders: fear, lust, anger, and pride. Thomas’s whole conversation is a practical field manual for what it looks like to work against those motivators on a daily basis. Habit stacking. The Billy Graham rule. Accountability partners. Speaking human instead of hiding behind religious language.
None of these are grand strategy. All of them are daily discipline. That is the Plan to Win.
Key Takeaways
Winning is a better relationship with Jesus today than yesterday.Direction, not perfection, is the discipline.
Guilt is not the discipline. Direction is.Bad days are still part of the plan.
Habit stack the essentials so willpower doesn’t have to.Bible before phone. Prayer before email. Decide once, run daily.
Watch out for the recovering Pharisee inside you.Checklist Christianity never gets past the surface.
Obligatory religious phraseology is not depth. It’s noise.Speak human. The people you are trying to reach will thank you.
Simple beats grand slam.Three or four simple things a day compound.
The Billy Graham rule protects your legacy without asking permission.Don’t put yourself in the situation. Ever.
Model boundaries. Don’t legislate them.Conviction that isn’t yours won’t hold up under pressure.
The phone stays out of the bedroom.The algorithm is faster than your willpower at 1 a.m.
Church marketing has ethical lines.Geofencing another church’s congregation is one of them.
You cannot pray your way out of pride or lust alone.The design requires another person.
Same-gender accountability is not optional.Your spouse is part of the equation but not the whole answer.
Iron sharpens iron in person.Physical presence, laying on of hands, and shared prayer are the mechanism.
Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Thomas Costello and what is Reach Right?
Thomas Costello is an executive pastor in Honolulu, Hawaii, and the founder of Reach Right, a church marketing agency. He has been bivocational his entire ministry career and is widely known for his teaching videos on practical church marketing tactics.
What is habit stacking and how does it apply to spiritual disciplines?
Habit stacking is a concept from James Clear’s Atomic Habits where you attach a new behavior to an existing daily trigger. In spiritual practice, it means pairing daily Bible reading and prayer with the first thing you already do every morning, so you don’t have to rely on willpower to choose them.
What is the Billy Graham rule (or Mike Pence rule)?
It’s a personal commitment not to be alone one-on-one with a person of the opposite sex who is not your spouse. The purpose is to eliminate the possibility of both moral failure and false accusation, both of which have ended ministries.
What is obligatory religious phraseology?
A term Dr. Dave coined for the churchy language leaders default to when they want to sound spiritual without saying anything concrete. Phrases that mean nothing to a first-time guest and often mean nothing even to the person using them.
Why does Dr. Dave say accountability partners must be same-gender?
Because the topics that hijack Christian leaders — especially lust and pride — require candor that a mixed-gender friendship cannot support safely. A same-gender partner can call you when you’re falling, be physically present, and pray with you in ways that avoid creating new risks.
Is it ethical for churches to use geofencing in their marketing?
Thomas and Dr. Dave agree it depends on the target. Geofencing to reach people at a mosque or Jehovah’s Witness location with Christian content is different from geofencing another Christian church’s congregation to steal members. The technology is neutral; the intent is not.
What Toxic Motivators Are Hijacking Your Decisions?
Fear, lust, anger, and pride sabotage more Christian leadership decisions than any strategy failure ever could. Find out what’s really driving yours.
